Dita Von Teese | Interview | American Masters

Dita Von Teese: I was always inspired by the ladies in 1930s and forties cinema because they stood for high glamor. I noticed at a young age that it was about the creation of glamor, the lipstick, the outfits, the feathers, the rhinestones. I especially love movies that were featured showgirls or women that were on stage.

Interviewer: And when do you remember seeing a Mae West film for the first time?

Dita Von Teese: I can’t remember the first time I saw Mae West film or which one it was. I’ve seen all of them, certainly. And I couldn’t even honestly name a favorite because for me, there’s all these, like, quick flashes of incredible iconic Mae West moments that were so distinctly Mae West. And of course, we know she played Mae West in every film she ever did. So it’s it’s hard to even distinguish a lot of them. And for me, it’s the image that always struck me, not really the plot, not the amazing plot of these films. It was really just her and the things she said and the, you know, the mannerisms that she had.

Interviewer: Yeah. I mean, what what sets her so apart from those other women? And you can even mention some of the other ones, you know, whoever would have inspired Dietrich. What made me so different from other women?

Dita Von Teese: To me, the thing that made me so different than all of those other Hollywood actresses is that she had so much control and power. She wrote every line she ever said in every film. She came to Hollywood and got her first contract just at age 38, I think, and made her first movie at 40. So she became a sex symbol when usually people were bowing out and quitting and losing their beauty, so to speak. So she was like, you know, really in control of of her career and kind of put it all in in a tailspin, like this idea of men controlling things. She was really, really never a victim. You know, she didn’t drink. She didn’t even smoke. She was a health freak and she was hyper focused. And so I think, like I mean, I could go on and on about her. She just she was very different than a lot of the stories we hear from then. She never was taken advantage of. She was a great businesswoman. And, you know, you can’t really even say all the boxes. You talk about Mae West. There’s no one has ever done that since. No one. You know, she was a writer. She was a director. She knew where her light was. She knew everything. And she crafted that that image. And, you know, it wasn’t part of a Hollywood machine. She decided everything. And, you know, of course, it could be could have been to her detriment ultimately, that she was always Mae West, because, you know, she was, you know, a caricature of herself in a lot of ways. But I don’t think that’s such a bad thing. I always looked at that as like a great thing.

Interviewer: How were you? Like, what do you remember? Sort of. Because a lot of people probably doesn’t go, This is some comic actress from the thirties, but they don’t think to really look into who she was by how and what made her who she was. I remember actually doing that like, I don’t know that this person.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah, I have been thirsty for knowledge about Mae West for at least the last 20 years, maybe more. I have read every book that’s ever been written about her. I have her every book that features photographs of her. I read every every word she’s ever written and anything I can get my hands on. I’m desperate for information about her. I love watching, you know, old interviews, recordings of her voice, people that knew her, mostly men. I love hearing about Mae West. There’s just for me a real fascination with her because she really stands for something different than a lot of actresses. She’s not really an actress to me.

Interviewer: Explain that what you mean.

Dita Von Teese: It’s hard to call someone an actress or to dismiss them as merely being an actress when she crafted her whole myth and her image and she, you know, stood for so many things in that era that no other woman stood for. You know, she was a sexual gangster. You know, she was really when you watch her, that’s what I think of her. She had this male mannerisms with this hyper feminized appearance. And it is really like a confusing blend of elements of watching her kind of like prey on men, kind of treat them the way that men usually treated women in that time. And it was really like exciting to watch somebody like that. Even now, it’s exciting.

Interviewer: Do you think that just knowing what you do because you sort of started to look into her as a person, do you think that she was doing something purposeful with this act? Was she trying to say something?

Dita Von Teese: I think that she was definitely trying to say something. She loved speaking about sex. But in a way that was never too direct or harsh or vulgar. And she loved obviously, we know she loves the double entendre and she you know, that was I think she was very decisive about that. She spoke at that about that her whole life. But she also didn’t approve of, you know, foul language and nudity and outward sex. Like she was very like strict in her belief system.

Interviewer: And can you elaborate a little bit more on like the turning the tables on men thing? Because I think the key to her.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like when you look at watch her you know and my favorite photograph of her also I think says it all. It’s like she’s in Mae West garb and she’s got this like, stance like a what do you got stance. I’m sure you know, the one it’s like it’s it’s gangster. It’s like it’s amazing. And for me, that’s who she was. I just love the confidence and even the fact that her confidence, you know, when you look at pictures of her, it’s not like she’s not really like this amazing beauty, honestly. I mean, she was beautiful to me, but she wasn’t like a classic beauty. Her shapes, you know, she crafted this myth about what her how she had this incredible body. But honestly, it’s like, not that amazing. But I love that she believed it. Therefore, other people believed it. And that’s like one of the most important things to me about Mae West is like she was so confident. I mean, she was egotistical for that’s the reality of it. But we love her for it. And sometimes you have to, like, hit those points home so hard to get it to rub off on other people. It’s like it’s over the top. She’s like, you know, I always say, like, I’m a glamor evangelist. Like, I like to go over the top with what my what I’m trying to say and be, you know, kind of fanatical about it because that maybe rubs off on people a little bit. And so I like the way her confidence is like that. It was so over the top. I mean, I think I read that on her deathbed, like she was just like doing an eye over pictures of herself, you know? But, you know, why shouldn’t she be proud of this person that she created that continues to inspire? It’s kind of complicated if you call somebody egotistical, but they’re not egotistical. They’re egotistical about themselves. But it’s like being egotistical about your art, your work that you do. It’s like knowing that you did good work. You know, I feel that way about what I do. It’s like, do I think I don’t think I’m, like, the best at anything, but I’m so proud of, like, the thing I created, but I’m not like, I’m the most beautiful person that ever lived, you know? I don’t feel that way at all, but I think it’s a little complicated when you’re talking about this, like when you made you and you became such an iconic figure like she did. It’s yeah, it’s like it’s it you’re egotistical about it because you’ve made something that people have for generations and generations been trying to imitate.

Interviewer: I’m so glad you made this point, because that’s one of the hard parts of making this film, is sometimes she’s kind of a jerk.

Dita Von Teese: I mean, I’m sure a lot of people know that she does not. She doesn’t get along well with women. And part of that was I think she genuinely didn’t. But I think she also, like, just didn’t want to admit if she liked any women because it wasn’t good for her image. And she had been crafting this image and this was something that was important to her. And I always said when people whenever people ask me, like, what’s my fantasy dinner party, I always say like, Oh, I’d have Mae West there, but I would have the good sense to put Mae West down at the end, surrounded by a bunch of like guys that I want to have dinner with too. I would never be sitting next to Mae West. I mean, I would I’m sure I’d get beat down, but I would love it. And I love that about her. I kind of think that your idols, you know, it’s it’s not bad always to, like, keep them at a distance in a way.

Interviewer: So, I mean, this is a question that maybe you can even answer from your own perspective of like the who who is her act trying to appeal to when you’re putting forward the sex positivity. Is it for men or could it also be for women or is it more for one or the other? Yeah.

Dita Von Teese: I think with Mae there’s a lot that we’ll never know, like what the image was for. I mean, we know she loved men, she loved being a sex symbol. I mean, the term sex symbol was created for her. And and I like to think, you know, maybe I know that she didn’t hate women or something, but I like to think that deep down, she felt like she could give power to other women by being that way, even though she never spoke about it. You know, maybe if it were if it were now, things would be different. Maybe, But I don’t. Well, I guess there’s a lot of that. We’ll never know, because even when I read about her or her words and you can see little tinges of how she wanted to empower women. But she doesn’t totally go there. She never talks about how much she loved so-and-so or so-and-so. And, you know, she never gives anybody else credit for inspiring her or anything like that. I mean, she did say that she really likes going to women’s prison, so she really likes hanging out with women then.

Interviewer: What kind of risks do you think she was taking by pushing for this sort of super sex positive persona when she was doing it?

Dita Von Teese: It’s hard to imagine the risks. I think that she she presented this sex positive persona in such a way, you know, where it was. It was dominant, but it was still okay for people because she was still like hyper feminine and had, you know, presented it in a playful way, like being dominant over men was still like she still did it in a like a around seductive and and womanly way instead of in a in a way that would, you know, push people away or make men feel threatened. I think they a lot of men felt like, oh, I mean, the ways that she kind of does things, she’s not predatory ever. She’s kind of like, if you want to be part of my world, you can be, you know, she’s seductive, but not in a predatory way.

Interviewer: You know, she was called a some of the greatest female impersonator. You know, that’s sort of the way people have said she was a parody of femininity. Mm hmm. Do you agree with that or do you think she was just.

Dita Von Teese: I, I think that she was definitely a parody of femininity, because, I mean, that’s something I’ve always loved is the hyper feminine. And this idea of women that decided to go above and beyond the normal natural femininity and, you know, the use, of course, the tree and high heels and lipstick and eyelashes and, you know, all these things that kind of take it way over the top. So I’m a huge fan of that. And I definitely think she did all that on purpose.

Interviewer: So she did at some point, she started an amateur theater and she did five, though she did do burlesque at some point, but she never really said if she did it or not. Right. Now, can you sort of describe and maybe there’s a little bit of a history lesson on why what burlesque was like? Yeah, she would have been doing it. Yeah. And why she might have wanted.

Dita Von Teese: To claim it. Right. Well, the thing about burlesque back then, burlesque was vaudeville as dirty cousin or brother or whatever, whatever you want to call it. It was not it was kind of a place where vaudevillians didn’t really want to end up, and they kind of saw it as a step down because burlesque was more about sex and was kind of like for the average working male. And, you know, the stars of the show were strippers, you know, eventually. And so I think, you know, I can see why she might have denied it. You know, I, I tend to believe her when she says she wasn’t involved in Russe. I mean, everything I know about burlesque history is really you know, I collect a lot of rare and original books from the 1930s that were actually written in the thirties about burlesque. And when you look at the pictures, you don’t see the Ziegfeld Follies glamorized Gypsy Rose Lee. You know, like the musical. You don’t see that all the real images of the real burlesque, It was like you had tough talk and broads, you had booze, you had drugs, and you had like, girls that were breaking the rules. So I think, you know, the glamorized version of burlesque that we see in movies, it’s kind of like sworn in by the real, authentic photos and video of burlesque. So, you know, sometimes I think people glamorize burlesque, which I love that glamorized burlesque, especially in this era when it means something decidedly different than what it did back then, when it was really for men to have a chance to ogle a girl taking your clothes off.

Interviewer: It’s interesting with Mae, because she never really is ever portraying an upper class persona, you know?

Dita Von Teese: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Interviewer: It’s true to that sort of Brooklyn accent. Mm hmm. What do you say about that? Why do you think she did that?

Dita Von Teese: Um, I think that I mean, she’s. We never really see her on camera without that drawl, you know? And she, of course, claims she didn’t get it from anywhere. And, you know, you can you could argue it and say, well, maybe she picked it up in vaudeville and, you know, maybe she appropriated it from black, black entertainer she was working with. But, you know, she also. Turned it into something completely different than it ever was. She always maintained that persona and it was quite natural for her. Even when you hear her speak off camera, she still spoke like that. And I. From what I’ve read about her, she picked that up at a very young age in vaudeville and being around other being around black entertainers. So I think that’s that’s my understanding. I think she she picked it up when she was a very little girl and kind of just like turn it into something that became the Mae West drawl, which is very different than anything else that we’ve ever heard.

Interviewer: It’s very distinctive. So, you know about her, her accent and her movement the way she is that you think to the burlesque if she did it. Yeah, I think she could.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah. But the body movement, I mean, she was very aware of that body movement. You know, she was, you know, would yell at the cameramen if they didn’t frame her the right way when she was doing her walk. And I think I mean, if I’m not mistaken, she became famous at first for like a a shimmy dance. And and they tried to they tried to capitalize on that. And she was like, no, no, no, that’s not what I’m going to be known for. But she knew the power of that, I think, and decided she was going to use it and not you know, she didn’t, but she wanted to I mean, known as like hoochie coochie dancer, you know what she did? But she knew that there was power in it.

Interviewer: This is kind of a weird question, but, you know, I want to ask about her hair color because she went from room to room when she was not on the stage. She was a brunet. And then when she hits Hollywood, she’s platinum, which a lot of women were then. Right. So I’m wondering if you know anything about why she would have done that and why you did the opposite.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah, I mean, I think like a lot of actresses that came to Hollywood had that big Hollywood makeover, which is something I always wanted, you know, so I can see why someone would be Brunet and come to Hollywood and they become a platinum blond or a fiery redhead. And me growing up as a blond girl from a farming town in Michigan, I was like, I’m going to give myself a big Hollywood makeover like that. I’m going to be the opposite of what I was born and start crafting my own myth. So I think it has a lot to do with that in deciding who you want to be. And, you know, I believe in the power of being whoever you want to be. So I love the big Hollywood makeover. I love an extreme hair color change. And sometimes it’s really interesting when someone’s like, there they go. They go the opposite of what their hair color is. A kind of brings out your features and you find out what you know. You realize your full potential as a glamor girl by playing with your hair color. So I can’t imagine. Mae West Well, that’s not true. I can imagine. I can imagine Mae West with black hair, because I always remembered Mademoiselle Fifi, those that when she was a brunet with that big barnet. That’s one of my favorite Midwest moments ever. I used to have a huge print of her as Mademoiselle Fifi on my wall. So suddenly those, like, eyebrows became really extreme. And yeah, it’s. It’s great. But I can see why she, you know, I love all these stories about how she used to, like, make all the other actresses if there their other women in the scenes with her, they had to have like some kind of gray stuff on their teeth. Have you heard about this? And they had to. We used darker color makeup. She wanted to be effervescent and luminous and the like, this icy, beautiful, sparkling blond that no one could compete with. And I think she accomplished that.

Interviewer: Yeah. And also in fashion, you know, we’re talking about her dresses earlier and, you know, when she I don’t know if you remember her first movie, she’s in like flapper dress. It’s very loose and doesn’t really work for her. She discovers that, oh, I’ll just go back to the 1890s and where are these old, you know, corseted dresses? And that’s how she developed her style. I mean, she really found the look that works for her.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah. I mean, I personally love that classic Mae West silhouette and the movies that were set in the 1900s. And that’s to me, like with the big hats, it’s like she knew what she looked best in and she was right about that. And so sometimes when you see her doing other eras, it’s not as effective as that. But, you know, she knew what was her best silhouette.

Interviewer: She stuck to it. I want to just say something that you said about underneath your your style of a desire to be objectified. I want to talk about that because I think she was sort of the same. But she, like you, was sort of combining it with still being a strong, powerful and had women. Can you sort of talk about that?

Dita Von Teese: Well, I, I think that, you know, when you’re a woman that’s in control of so many aspects of your life with your career, your business, and it’s kind of. A taboo to admit you want to be objectified. It’s like one of the last taboos is to say, like, you know, I’m okay with letting go and being objectified. It’s I think it’s like going to I always imagine it’s like we’ve evolved to a level where we don’t have to compromise any more. We can have it all. We can live in the grace of our femininity if we want to, and let go. I mean, it’s really kind of to me it’s like a little bit on parallel with when you hear about these high powered businessmen that are paying somebody to like, whip them in private. You know, it’s a little bit like that.

Interviewer: Is may a sort of a role model for that kind of like desire to Do you think your job is to be objectified and that sort of come from her?

Dita Von Teese: I think I’m not sure for me where it would come from, but I think in my life where I felt like I was an ugly duckling and wanted to know what it was like to be a beauty. I did craft my own, you know, kind of sexual persona as a pinup girl and a burlesque dancer. Like, that’s really what I why I did it. I wanted to be know what it was like to be desired. I wanted to be like a goddess on a pedestal. I wanted to know what that felt like because I didn’t grow up feeling like that. And I think that, you know, I can definitely relate to her in that way of, you know, deciding for yourself what you were going to be and making people believe it. And, you know, because that’s how that’s how I feel all the time. It’s like I you know, like I said, I’m a dishwater blond from Farmington, Michigan, and I was never glamorous, you know, So but I made people believe that I was. And it worked.

Interviewer: Do you think there was basically no line between Mae West, the performer, and me? Was the person like from the stands? You were reading her words?

Dita Von Teese: Yeah. I don’t I don’t think that there is anything I don’t think Mae was attached to her childhood. I think she didn’t care about nature and things. You know, she was very she was Mae West and her whole life was Mae West. And from what I understand, she didn’t care if she left her house or apartment. She she bought, like houses by the beach. Never wanted to go there, didn’t care about that. She really just cared about Mae West. And throughout her whole life, she was always trying to become a better version of Mae West and like didn’t give it up until the end. Never gave up. And she was you know, she cared about cultivating that image and her career that she cared so deeply about. But I don’t think that there was like a hidden Mae West at all. I think that she had forgotten the Mae West that she might have been when she was a little girl. But then but on the other hand, sorry. I mean, when I think about when she was a little girl and the story she has about when she was a little girl, I’m sure you’ve already explored this poem that she wrote when she was like 15 or something. And you’re reading and you’re like, this is like an adult woman that wrote this. So I kind of feel like she was never even, like, probably couldn’t even relate to her childhood and couldn’t even understand why she had to, you know, be a kid. Anyway, I felt a little bit like that when I was a little girl. I was sort of like, Oh, well, when am I going to be an adult that gets to make her own decisions? I’ve got plans, I’ve got things to do. And I felt like I had a lot in common with her like that. Because when people say like, Oh, your childhood must have been great, it was like, Honestly, best time of my life has been when I became an adult. I just always wanted to work. I always wanted to be a woman, and I never really liked playing games or being a child. So I feel like I have a lot in common with Mae West. I think Mae West was always Mae West in a lot of ways. You know, even when she was a little girl.

Interviewer: I think you’re totally right. And that’s a great point. I mean, do not know much about her mother.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah, I’m going I always think about this story about her father then wanting to do a family portrait. You know, about this story Like there’s some story. It’s a little bit murky in my head, but there’s like, a story about her father wanting to do a portrait of her, and she was like, I’m not doing it unless you find me a white dog with a black spot over a tie. And she tells that story and her dad, like, scrambled because Mae West always got what ever Mae West wanted. Even she when she was a little girl, from what I understand. And he found that dog and there’s a picture of her with that dog. But I understand also she didn’t really like her father. And she has a there’s so many interesting things about her. When she first discovered sex, she instantly decided she didn’t like her parents very much because she discovered this sex thing happened between them. And she was completely appalled by the idea and didn’t really like her father because he was a cigaret cigar smoker. But she was very close to her mother. I understand. And and that and she was extremely disturbed by losing her mother. Ah, and often said she would trade everything just to spend a day with her mother again.

Interviewer: Yeah, it’s interesting. There’s definitely some early sort of proto feminist anger at men. Mhm. On in her life and I think sort of she turned into comedy but maybe early on some of her plays was more just like anger at men.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah.

Interviewer: Interesting. Yeah. She found a way to express it in other ways. Mhm.

Dita Von Teese: Well I mean I think maybe her anger at men is part of what made her want to flip the script and make demands like, you know, demands for more money than the men running the studios even. And demand to be respected. Demands to get credit for writing things. As some other actresses wrote a few lines in their movies but like they never got credit. But she was really adamant about what she was getting credit for, paid for. And so, yeah, maybe she was not some you know, she was angry, but she seemed to have used her anger in the right way, if you ask me.

Interviewer: Do you know anything about her associations or with drag queens?

Dita Von Teese: Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I know, I know that, you know, Mae West is one of those people that, you know, drag queens immediately wanted to imitate. And of course, I think that goes back to the hyper feminization of a woman. I mean, it’s you know, it’s one of the you know, you can put on Mae West, you can put on a mae West costume. You can totally become Mae West, you know, And that’s that’s something that I love. And, you know, I don’t think there’s enough drag queens doing Mae West these days, but I’m sure it’s going to swing back around. You see it every once in a while. But I know that, like in the seventies, you had a lot of it. And, um, I’m sure her her image will continue to be tapped into for Drag and Burlesque.

Interviewer: And she even wrote a play with drag queens in it in the twenties. Yeah. Really? Ahead of the game when it came to, like, you know, just including homosexuality. And, you know.

Dita Von Teese: She was ahead of the game when it came to, like, homosexuality. But she was also pretty harsh, too. I mean, if you read her some of her writings about it, it’s a little bit like cringeworthy because you’re like, oh, she does not accept that, you know, gay men could have a a happy relationship. She doesn’t think, you know, is pretty risque. Like, I like to think all great things about Mae West, but when you read about some of it, you think, okay, well, maybe she this is how she felt. It was a very different time. You couldn’t say those things now. Like she didn’t think that they could ever be fulfilled in their relationship with a man, could be fulfilled with a relationship with another man or a woman could be fulfilled with another woman.

Interviewer: She didn’t. Definitely. I mean, she thought that gay men were had winning souls or something.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah, it was a little bit, you know, not no.

Interviewer: Great writing. So those are next. Pointing to what she was doing. Yeah. Gay men in her plays or even African-American. So she was kind of taken from the culture where she could.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah. Yeah.

Interviewer: I mean, progressive, right, In some ways was. Yeah, But yeah, it’s complicated.

Dita Von Teese: Yes, but, you know, it’s that’s why she’s an interesting character to follow is she’s flawed, like all of us.

Interviewer: For sure. Have you seen her final two movies?

Dita Von Teese: The Myra Breckinridge. And I saw some of Myra Breckinridge.

Interviewer: What do you think about that one?

Dita Von Teese: Well, you know what? Oh, there’s all this strife between Raquel Welch and her and a lot of, like, ages. Things come up with regard to that. And I was thinking about this might be risque to say I was thinking about how like she you know, there were all these things about the ages colliding and people made a big thing like, gosh, she doesn’t she hates Raquel Welch because Raquel Welch is younger, blah, blah. And I was thinking about a few years ago when I was at a dinner with Raquel Welch and somebody was like, she can’t be photographed with anybody younger. She refuses. And I was like, Well, that’s fine. I’m just respect, you know, I get it. And I was thinking about this cycle of like, like how it is like how you think it’s going to be when you’re younger and you’re like, oh, why is she so, you know, to me, because I’m young and she’s old, like, and then it cycles through and then you become that person and then you’re just like, get these young girls away from me, you know? And I know it’s going to happen to me, too. You know, it’s a it’s a really cyclical thing that is so I mean, it’s it’s yeah, it’s a it can’t be hard. And that movie always makes me think of that more than anything.

Interviewer: And part of me is sort of wish this man was a little more confident, strong, don’t care because she’s. Yeah.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah. But she did care. And you know, it’s really tough to get older in the spotlight, right? Yeah, I think. Can’t. You can’t even. You never know. Even till you’re there. You can try it. You can. You can have like you know, you can try to be empathetic and compassionate, you know. But it’s kind of hard to even wrap your head around it until you’re there in the thick of it, in the thick of the aging process.

Interviewer: I mean, she got a lot of flack for those movies.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah.

Interviewer: And people sort of were like, oh, that’s so embarrassing. Right. She’s in costume. She’s trying to be sexy. She’s got the 30 year old boyfriend. Like, it’s embarrassing for her. Mm. You feel that?

Dita Von Teese: I think that. I think, first of all, we need examples of aging and sensuality and eroticism, and it’s not always easy. And you’re definitely you have, you know, with. With watching our idols of. Of beauty and glamor and sensuality, watching their their life process and go through different stages of life. It’s like it’s hard to win because if you you can go away and hide and people will maybe remember or you can die early and people will remember you in your prime of life and your height of height of beauty, which is debatable because everyone’s height of beauty is different. It’s always about youth. Or you can fight it, you can ignore it, you can try to be younger again with plastic surgery. I mean, you really can’t win whatever you do if you try to if you try to just like, be like, oh, I’m just going to be old and I’m not going to be sexy, then people are like, Oh, she looks terrible. She looks at tired, she looks hideous now, you know? And if you are trying to like, look good, then they’re like, Oh, she’s doing too much. Doing too much. And then when it comes to like being a, you know, a sexual person as an older woman, that’s even, you know, I was that I was at a Pilates class, you know, a couple years ago. And I remember hearing this girl ranting about Madonna posing nude at her age. And this is few years ago, too. And I was like, sitting there and there’s a woman next to me in the politest class, too. And she was like in her late fifties. And I honestly was like, you know what? We’re all here trying to look better, trying to feel better. Don’t talk that way in front of any of us. And she, you know, she was like 20 something. And I know that that girl one day is going to be like, that was a stupid thing to say. I was a really stupid thing to say. But yeah, I think it’s it’s not difficult to go through the aging process. And I’m certainly like I’m a burlesque dancer. And even when I was 35, 30, doing my first, like big interviews for TV shows and that was a big question that would come up. It’s like, what are you going to do when you get old and you can’t do this anymore? And I was like, Oh, they’re already asking me this. And I’m like 30 years old and I’m at my best right now. I was like, Wow, this is going to be a thing I knew when I was younger. This is going to be a thing and that people are always going to be pointing it out to me that I should go away. And I think there’s also with with ageism and sensuality and people in entertainment, there’s always this kind of I think that there’s a lot of younger people that are super intimidated and they want you to go away so that there’s a space for them to get in, maybe stealing your stuff to, you know, maybe trying to be like you stealing your material. I’m it’s my turn now. And they’re also intimidated because, you know, older women have some seriously potent erotic skills. And that combined with knowledge and with somebody like me was like I, I am absolutely positive that there are many men that would have rather hung around with me less or more attracted to Mae West, not just for her wisdom in life, but her, you know, wit and and humor, but also her sensuality. I don’t think, you know, we we hear these stories all the time, like younger girls, like I see with that old lady, We I if you’re smart, you’ll know why he’s with that old lady. There’s a lot of reasons that people the older women. So I think, you know, it’s this kind of like sometimes women that aren’t evolved and they don’t they they have all fallen for like just look east mentality and it’s all about how you look. They forget about all the things that you go through life and you all the knowledge you gather and how fascinating that is for people. And so they don’t understand that yet. And they’re intimidated by it and jealous of it.

Interviewer: I think with Mae, you know, she was pushing all these pushing against all the same sex with women. Yeah. But the last taboo that we still haven’t gotten past. No. Is.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah.

Interviewer: And like, do you think it’s possible it can really get past this.

Dita Von Teese: I don’t know. I think I think we can get past It was like certain. I think it’s more about the age you are and understanding it. Like I know women that are in their late thirties and forties that totally understand it. It’s actually the people that are younger. But that’s an easy thing to say because then I’m just now I’m generalizing about young people not knowing anything, and that’s a terribly ageless thing to say. So I take it back. But you know what I’m saying? But I still I find it interesting that like throughout my life I’ve been noticing, you know, I can be I was I was at a dinner with Anjelica Huston and I was like, oh, my God, Anjelica Huston. She’s so amazing. And and, you know, I’m in position sometimes where I feel like she said something like, Oh, you don’t know yet. You’re so young. And I was like, I’m 46, you know? So sometimes I’ll be around people that, like, make me feel old. Like what was like before cell phones, you know, like you feel like of how you’ve been doing this for a long time, you know, and they’ll make me feel old. And then there’s people that make me feel like the ingenue. And I think it’s really interesting, too, when you’re walking the line of people dismissing you because you’re young and immature and when you’re like older than everybody else and they are ages toward you, I feel like especially at 46, I feel feel both sides of that constantly. I thought it was interesting that, like her first reviews said, she was like kind of a mediocre talent about a lot of things, like a mediocre beauty, a mediocre singer, a mediocre actress. And I kind of really like I realize, like in my life, I am really attracted to people that were always considered mediocre talents. It’s like a mae West or Liberace. Somebody was like a mediocre pianist, but like rose to something great. And despite the fact that people said you weren’t like the best in the world and you’re not that great, Madonna Like in more recent times, you know how many times we’ve heard Madonna is not that good of a singer and not that good of an actress, not that good of a director or not. You know, people can say terrible things. And I’m always really attracted to people that, like, overcame and kind of crafted their image to a point where it becomes iconic despite all these kind of like mediocre talents. I mean, I don’t think Mae West is a mediocre talent, really. But I think it’s interesting that, like, she wasn’t a singer, she wasn’t an actress, like a dramatic actress, but she kind of like just rose above all of it with all that. You know, shortcomings.

Interviewer: That’s so true. It’s so. It’s very similar to Madonna. Really? Yeah. Have you. Do you know much about her? Her love of, like, spirituality and any of the ESP, I think. What do you make of all of that? The psychic?

Dita Von Teese: Yeah. I mean, I love reading her book about sex, health and ESP. I think there’s some really sound advice and even the stuff about extrasensory perception. I kind of look at it like it’s a there’s a lot of really interesting things about it. I mean, I feel like when what she’s really talking about is like meditation and being in tune with your thoughts, it’s not really I don’t think it’s all that out there. And, you know, she was so focused and clearheaded and didn’t drink or anything, didn’t do drugs that I think, you know, her life advice is all really good. Even if you take some of that with a grain of salt and think like, okay, maybe it’s not you know, that’s not exactly what it is. And now I think we have like I think if it if she were living it now, it would be more about like meditation. And also, I love when she talks about using the sex force, you know, because now a lot of people are talking about like sexuality and using like orgasm to achieve and, you know, to manifest things instead of thinking about sex, you’re thinking about like the sex force and what it can the abundance it can bring you. I mean, I’m into all that stuff, you know, And I think that May was definitely into that sort of thing, too. I think in her book, there’s something about, you know, okay, so you need to clean your house and you just don’t feel like doing it. So I suggest go take off all your clothes and think about sex like sex, sex and then get up out of bed and go do that task. And I was like, That’s really interesting advice. And it’s good advice, you know, to, like, use your sex force to go after things.

Interviewer: That’s funny. I mean, do you I like just a few times. I’m really curious. Do you think do you think she actually had as much time as she claimed?

Dita Von Teese: It’s hard to say if she had as much sex as she claimed. I mean, we’ll never know. I I’m always really curious about, you know, her last relationship, especially like how much sex was there. But, you know, I think she I think the thing she never wanted to admit to is that she’d been in love before and that liked having, you know, that she liked having long term partners. You know, she always acted like, you know, she had lots of men around. But I think that privately, I think there were certain men that really got her and that she stuck close to. But she always like to keep the illusion of being free and being single and having like lots and lots and lots of men. I think that that’s kind of I think it’s true in a lot of ways, but we’ll never really know. I mean, yeah, but I think she probably, you know, when you get into her, you realize that there are a few people that I think really, you know, got to her and that she was truly in love with. She just didn’t want to get married and didn’t want to be seen as as taken.

Interviewer: But also, I think she didn’t really want to be vulnerable. Right.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah, That’s I mean, that’s what it comes down to, Right. She didn’t want to be vulnerable and didn’t want to have you know, she never talks about heartbreak ever in her whole life. I mean, can you imagine there’s not one. I can’t think of any other actresses like never, you know, never talks about heartbreak and sadness. She wouldn’t would never even speak about being sad. You know, she she was really just like, my life is great and no one’s ever broken my heart and nobody’s ever gotten to me. Everything is like it happened the way it happened. She never was a victim. She refused to be victimized in any way.

Interviewer: That’s great. I mean, in some ways, it makes her hard to relate to.

Dita Von Teese: Yeah, true. I mean, I wish, you know, I don’t personally, like think that like I said, like Mae West is not like a perfect role model. And, you know, you you wish that she could have been a little bit more progressive and spoke to women a little bit more and being a little bit more vulnerable. But that’s not who she was. And, you know, I guess there’s lots of other people to look to for those those kinds of examples.

Interviewer: We were saying earlier that not a lot of people, certainly young people, really know who made was. So why do you think people should why do you think we should make this film and people to learn about men?

Dita Von Teese: Um, I think people should learn about me because I think in business and show business and as a as a sex symbol, I think her legacy is really important. And I think that, you know, we don’t hear enough about a story like hers. We don’t hear about it now, we didn’t definitely didn’t hear about it then. And I think it’s a really important story. And like I said, it’s just like I’ve been hung on her every word, um, because it’s campy, amusing, playful, empowering and inspiring in a lot of ways too, to be able to say what you want. You know, there’s a lot of people that give us permission to say what we want in life, in business, in sexuality, even.